NON ALCOHOLIC DRINKS PODCASTMike Graham, Founder - Banks & Burbidge Non-Alcoholic Gin: Episode #008

When Mike Graham, Founder of Banks & Burbidge dropped in to chat and let us know:

• The idea for Banks & Burbidge was born in 2015 when Mike was looking for a non-alcoholic alternative following a shift in his alcohol consumption;

• After trying the options available at the time – Seedlip, Mike felt there was a gap in the market for traditional tasting Gin;

• Banks & Burbidge is small-batch distilled with water (not an ethanol base) using local ingredients and is juniper led and sees (at current) 62% Juniper botanicals in each bottle!; and

• Consumer Feedback has seen Mike and the team iterate on the formulation and as a result, the recipe has been tweaked to have 20% more botanicals in each batch than when he got started.

• Banks and Burbidge are available for sale at Banksandburbidge.com as well as all the main retailers.

• Visit Banks & Burbidge on:
  • Instagram
  • Facebook
  • Twitter

Podcast Transcript:

Jonathan

Alrighty, today I’m chatting with Mike Graham from banks and Burbidge. Now if you don’t know who Mike is, He is the creator of the banks and Burbidge alcohol free distilled gin. It is a traditional tasting gene at using at least 60% Juniper in every single bottle. And it utilizes some amazing locally sourced produce and botanicals. It is a soft flavour profile with spice and citrus and finishes with a really, really great heat from Tasmania, pepper berries and dried chilli.

I chat to Mike today about all things banks and Burbidge where you can find it the flavour profile and also how he went about creating the drink. So with that, let’s hop across to today’s chat with Mike and see what do you got to say. Mike, welcome to the non alcoholic drinks podcast. It’s great to have you on board and really looking forward to sharing how you got started with the project that is banks and Burbidge. But before we dive into that, it would be really great to get everyone up to speed on your background and how you got into the space.

Mike

Thanks, Jonathan. It’s a it’s really great to talk to you this morning. Going back in 2015 was when I first sort of started to explore non alcoholic alternatives to gin I was a it’s a frequent alcohol drinker, not a heavy alcohol drinker. But I love the gin and tonic and love red wine.

And I had some health issues around my heart and going through as you do with your with your medical professionals going through you know, lifestyle changes, whatever I need to look at. diet was obviously one of those things. And unfortunately, alcohol was on the list. And we are while again, while I’d never been a heavy drinker, it was a case of what can I cut down on alcohol. And as I said, My two favourite four gin and tonic and red wine. So looking for alternatives, it sort of started off in that in that gene space. And back in 2015, it was the only product that could really find with Seedlip.

You know, I was able to get a bottle of seagull about through David Jones online with carrying it at the time, but was able to get some Seedlip bottles, I can’t say they hit the mark of what I was looking for. Because I was really I really was just looking for, I want to go from having my you know, pre dinner, Bombay Sapphire and tonic or Hendrix and tonic to a non alcoholic equivalent which tasted exactly the same gave me exactly the same feeling and was just that that good after work drink or to transition into dinner, drink that or really come to enjoy.

So I didn’t sort of think too much about it just sort of kept my eye on the marketplace as to what alternatives were there. Till just in 2017. I found myself without a without a job and was thinking about what should I be doing next? And was my wife actually, you said to me wanted to look further into the non alcoholic gin issue you’ve been thinking about? I’d been doing research on, you know, how are these things made, I was June made, etc, just sort of trying to learn more about the product. And I wanted to look for something, I suppose when we’re looking at what I was going to do next.

I’ve been travelling for such a long time, I wanted to stay at home in Brisbane moving on a little bit in age and obviously I’d had some health issues. So I was looking for something that would be you know, keep me physical.

So rather than sitting behind a desk all day, something that I could do, and so that the idea of well, if I can’t find something that I like, why don’t I make it myself and so just started to research out made recipes around gene got in contact with a company called steel dragon down in Coffs Harbour that suppliers to the distilling industry as far as with stills and that sort of thing and talked to Gary down there about what sort of equipment would be required.

And just basically got to the point where I said, I can do this, I’m going to try and make something for myself basically, that is just a classic gene that you can have a nice gin and tonic, I wasn’t looking for a specific unusual flavour, which obviously in the in the gym marketplace, particularly as being a trend the last couple of years coming up with unusual flavours.

I just wanted that nice bottle of gin that you can have in the cupboard pull out for a dinner party, and everybody’s going to like it, whether it’s your Bombay Sapphire, your tank or equivalent, you can just have in your cupboard and be make a nice reliable gin and tonic. So that’s sort of how it, how it started.

And a lot of research and a lot of a lot of challenges from there. But that’s where the thought process came from was around health It was around finding an equivalent that I could keep still having a nice gin and tonic, but without the alcohol obviously.

Jonathan

So it really looks like it was one of those moments where you’ve had this health issue and you’re like, Okay, well I need to change something like so many people who talk about this piece around the early movers in the space, how did you go about that research because I imagine that is something which is so difficult to go from someone who likes drinking gin and knows what they like to someone who’s actually able to create an alcoholic gin and then move across to the piece of non alcoholic team. So what did that look like?

Mike

Well, I suppose for me, it was I mean, first of all, was just looking at what is in gym. So looking at, you know, looking at recipes, looking at ingredients, and particularly around those core good quality standard genes like Bombay, Sapphire and Hendrix, etc. Looking at their ingredients. So understanding what goes in them.

Then he started Seedlip had written a fair bit of stuff around the processes that he went through. So the manufacturing processes, starting to look at how gene is made, again challenging myself and looking and saying Well, there’s Make it like an alcoholic gene and basically take the alcohol out, or in sort of segments, you know why?

Why do you even need to introduce the alcohol in the first place? I mean, obviously, in Australia, there’s licensing issues around being able to use alcohol. And so there was a little bit of incentive of why put alcohol into the product at all.

So that’s sort of where I was coming from was, how can I do it without introducing alcohol, and it was, everything I was reading it was as well, where I see the word alcohol, just change that to water.

And what does that do Now obviously, that leads to a lot of issues in flavouring and manufacturing, etc, which I got to along the journey and had to solve, but to me, I almost start to think this is too simple to be true, make it like a traditional gene, but just introduce water instead of alcohol and go from there.

Jonathan

Yeah, and I think that’s a really important piece as well around using water as the base. It doesn’t quite have the properties that ethanol has, when you go to utilize it against the botanicals. And it really looks like that there’s been so many challenges along the way of people trying to distil something with water, and then having to really bump up the amount of botanicals used, tasting the banks and verbiage is really interesting, because straightaway, at least for me, I found the floral notes in it.

And I imagined that that would have been something quite difficult to create. So with the process around getting it from raw botanicals, and then the water. How did you find that was a process that you came about yourself? Or again, was it a by-product of all the research?

Mike

Well, again, I think a by-product of the research, I always wanted to be traditional, I always wanted to make the gene in a very traditional way.

And obviously there’s normally you know, I suppose for virgin, there’s normally two ways there’s the maturation way where you’re getting all the botanicals and cooking them basically and getting all the flavours out that way and then putting it in a steel, or there’s the infusion having the flavours in a basket and having the alcoholic vapours flow through those now for me, obviously just using water, the infusion way was not going to work just passing steam over the botanicals, you’re not going to be able to draw the depth of flavours out.

So for me the maturation why was the way to go. So was I suppose a little bit of experimentation around the actual process? How long do you boil it for? How long do you leave it for, to try and get as much flavour out of the botanicals as you can. And then just a simple case of the amount of botanicals used.

So the botanicals you have what percentage is a grouping, what percentage of a and the final product. And you know, to be fair to say we’re probably with the latest batch we’ve made, we’re probably using 20% more botanicals than what we used in the very first batch through fantastic feedback from customers, because I was probably a little bit too close to it.

I think you can taste the flavours when you know what you’re looking for. But for somebody to take advantage in Burbidge for the first time and mix it with their favourite tonic water and drink it getting that feedback that it was, yeah, I can the flavours are there. But they’re a bit too subtle, you know, it’d be great if there was a bit more depth to the flavours.

And so through that feedback, just keeping the same recipe as far as the relationship of the botanicals, but just putting more of the mean, over time it is in a realization that, you know, yeah, if you’re using a water-based, rather than an alcoholic base, you’ve just got to use so much more botanicals to get that same depth of flavour.

You know, obviously the alcohol releases the flavours that water doesn’t the processing, boiling and breaking it down then leaving, leaving that seeking process go for at least two days, etc to get as much of the flavour out as possible.

Jonathan

So it looks like there is really that pace around so much trial and error and so many iterations by the sounds of it. And based off that customer feedback, you’ve been able to iterate the product again and actually have this amazing feedback. And it allows you to create something better than you probably ever imagined. Right?

Mike

Exactly. Exactly. And we did use so right from the start. Yeah, and I suppose from that factor of feeling like you’re a little bit close to it. We used bogus tasting groups to help us with the first product, we knew what we were going for.

So we sort of you know, told people we just wanted that standard of I hate using the word generic but the standard good quality gene that is not necessarily a flavour that creates a poll with people that either like it or hate it, but it’s just something that you can have in your cupboard and you’re happy to bring out for a dinner party your guests or whatever it is I said the Bombay Sapphire the Tanqueray equivalent, etc.

So people knew what we were going for. We explained that people got that. And so we ran, I think we ran about four tasting sessions with different groups of people and got the feedback based on Was this something that you would swap out alcohol product, how close to it was for tank array or Bombay, Sapphire, etc, and got a lot of feedback around that.

So that’s sort of where we went to and then we sort of done the same thing since then relying on customers feedback and looking for those common grounds as to how we can improve the product.

Jonathan 

That’s a really interesting piece. I haven’t heard many people say that they actually went down that path of engaging customers at the iterative stage at the development stage. So what was some of the feedback that you did get there because I know that you noted a couple of other alcoholic gins that you were directing them towards did it skew one way or the other or was it kind of even across the board?

Mike

we were aiming for a direction so we were aiming for, as I said that the Bombay Sapphire 10th grade 12 equivalent we’re aiming for that he also went from one focus group to the next focus group, it was using the feedback to move us more in that direction.

The other critical piece that came out was a lot of people were looking for, they understood that it was non alcoholic, but they were looking for the same alcoholic feel, and particularly around heat. And we had factored that in in the original recipe and we’d introduced one of our ingredients is Tasmanian pepper berry.

I mean to me that it’s actually my favourite ingredient. I love the smell of it. It’s there’s a sweetness but at the same time, use that peppery feel. And so we introduced that to get that peppery heat in the product. But what we were hearing was that it wasn’t enough, there wasn’t enough of particularly in the aftertaste.

So as the products going down your throat, you know, at the top of your mouth, or in your throat, just leaving that little bit of heat and a little bit of texture there. So we tried a few different things we tried ginger, the problem with ginger was it has its own taste, obviously, and was impacting it too much in that regard, oh, we ended up settling on chilli. So we added chilli pepper to the recipe.

And that got a consensus that that was definitely adding heat to the product. But as I said in the last batch, again, we’ve upped the amount of chili in the product. So you know and we are enjoying the feedback we’re getting with customers we’ve had for a long time now writing to us and saying, Wow, I can really feel that now that’s a great sensation that I get in the back of my throat. So that’s it’s been a good process. But you know, some sometimes the comments you got to take on board a little bit, a little bit harshly and go Okay, I’ll just resolve myself to keep going. There’s a lot of little positive constructive feedback as well.

Mike

And that’s part of the process as well, right? It’s putting yourself to one side and actually being like, well, I’m making this for people to enjoy and drink as well. And that is another piece around the botanicals themselves.

So I noticed you said you’ve been upping them as you go. But that ratio around the Juniper botanical has remained constant, like you said the recipe has remained relatively constant generally, is it the same way of Juniper is sitting at around a minimum 60% in the drink? And then the other botanicals live around that?

Mike

Exactly, yeah. So we have to put about 62% Juniper in our drink. And as I said, we’re trying to make a traditional gene and traditionally gene is made on Juniper, do you look at some of the guidelines, particularly in Europe?

Well, there’s two core product gene, there’s an alcoholic content. But there’s also some definitions around the recipe and having a minimum 60% Juniper is important in the recipe. So we want it to be very traditional, we didn’t want to move away from the very traditional gin taste based on Juniper.

And then at the same time, we wanted to make sure we had a touch of spiciness, we had the citrus feel, and then obviously coupled with that, having the heat of the product coming through. So having all those what I would call the core gin, textures and flavours in there, we wanted to make sure we had a piece of all that.

And then the other ingredient that we added was just sort of, you know, orris root binds, that helps bind everything together and get those aromas and flavours coming through. And that was really important for us, particularly when you’re not introducing alcohol to help you get those flavours out.

So making sure we’ve got a fair amount of Orris Root in there to really helped get the aromas and the flavours of the other botanicals coming through and giving them longevity in a bottle was also important to us.

Jonathan

And how does Orris Root support as an ingredient or botanical itself?

Mike 

It’s called a fixative. So it helps fix the flavours that it’s blended with together so it helps bind them together and helps fix them in the solution. So it just again gives it longevity but also allows the flavours to work together instead of just fixes them in place.

So you’re not getting variations overtime etc. And it’s allowing each of the botanical flavours to be there and to deliver what they’re meant to deliver.

Jonathan

So it sounds like it acts as that natural way to stabilize and enhance the fibres as well. And in terms of the process behind manufacturing or creating the drink itself. It sounds like you do have that custom made stainless and copper pot stills where they all sourced directly for you or from the team adding in costs or did you kind of figure find them separately?

Mike

No, No So we worked with still dragon and still dragging get all the material manufactured overseas, so wasn’t with the team down there looking at exactly what we needed and they bought it for us.

Jonathan

So it would then allow you to create something which is truly unique and have your own kind of flavour profiles. Next up, Mike went on to explain the flavour profile in the banks and Burbidge product. So while it is a traditional tasting Gin, have a listen to the way that the flavours are put together structured and what you can expect to find in each glass.

Jonathan

If you were describing it to someone who’s never had it before, like you said it’s quite a traditional tasting gin with that spice in that heat from that joy. What would you describe it as if you were giving it to somebody completely new to it.

In simple terms, I’d say it’s complex flavour, but it’s subtle. So it allows you to I think through the garnishing, it allows you to move it in a way that you prefer your gin and tonics today so if you’re more citrus Titan or if you prefer the citrus flavours, you can use a lime or lemon garnish and it just pushes it a little bit more towards the citrus flavour.

If you’re A little bit more the botanical a little bit more earthy, and I suppose I mean that fear I love I love the Hendrix with the cucumber, you know a little bit of cucumber, I keep a Rosemary bush outside on the veranda loving nothing better than to snip a little bit of rosemary and put it in there as well. So you can lean the flavour of the drink using the garnish, but it’s got those because it’s got a mixture of those so it does have the citrusy feel it does have the spiciness and it being predominantly Juniper, you’re always going to get that little bit of earthiness and pine coming through.

So I love it as you can just enhance it and move it subtly towards what you prefer. Yeah, I’m not a great drink the gin straight type person, so I don’t normally drink it straight. But I think if you do drink it straight over ice, you can certainly feel the different textures and flavours in there. But as a gin and tonic, is I generally tend to base on what am I feeling like today, like a bit of lime and put it in there or I drop some cucumber in there just depends what I’m looking for.

Jonathan:

It looks like it does work. And I’ve tried it with a few different alternatives in terms of garnishes, as well and also on its own. And it really does work with different approaches. And like you said, you kind of make it to what you feel.

But the thing I noticed the most after trying so many of them lately is the actual mouthfeel of it. When you look at it. I mean when you look at it, and it’s clear, it does sound a bit strange for me to say it’s got a shame. And you can see the weight when you actually move it around in your glass. It does have that weight and sheen to it.

Was that something which like you said earlier you were you picked up from the feedback from the people who you were going through the focus groups with? And was that a real focus for you guys to develop that and really bring that to part of the drink?

Mike

No, not really, I think that’s just a side impact of the maturation process and the level of botanicals that are going into the recipe versus an alcoholic gene where the botanical content is much lower because the alcohol is working on it to bring the flavours because of the amount of botanicals, we have to put in the drink, I think it delivers that little bit of Sheen, a little bit of texture.

That’s amazing. And I think it’s really interesting to hear that because so many people try to achieve that they actually actively go out of their way to try and get that level of mouthfeel. And it looks like you’ve just focused on the flavour and developing the flavour profile. And it’s taken care of itself, which is almost a lesson in itself, right?

That if you kind of take care of the flavour pace and do all the main building blocks, right, then the end product will actually take care of itself and deliver. Yeah, and I can’t underestimate the impact that chilli has on that because I think the chilli in your mouth, whether that just opens up your taste buds a little bit more for that field. I’m not sure but certainly the chilli impact has really helped bring out the flavours of the rest of the botanicals.

Jonathan

And now that you’ve got this amazing product, where is it available, because I know I picked mine up locally in store. And it’s also online, right?

Mike

So obviously the industry is changing as far as where you can buy non alcoholic alternatives. And there’s some great things happening in the marketplace with some new players out there. So we’re with most of the online people that have come through songs drinks, we’ve been with craft zero since they launched last year on Dan Murphy’s online and they’re now doing some testing in stores for expanding their non alcoholic range.

So we’re one of the brands that they’re testing with drink, zero killjoy drinks, all those innovative new companies that are starting in this space, we are selling through them. And it almost feels like there’s a new one every week. So you know, we sort of try to keep up to date on social media and in the marketplace. For us, the key is how do we get people to taste the product and from industries that I’ve worked in before I’ve always had a saying is, you know, you’ve got to sell where they shop.

And I think one of the challenges for this sort of product, right from the word go is you know, who is your market and where are they going to buy this product, you know, easier market more people like myself who had become used to an alcoholic drink that they liked.

And we’re now looking for a non alcoholic alternative, and therefore, would you put their product in a Dan Murphy’s where people who are buying alcohol can see a non alcoholic alternative? Or is your main market actually going to be people who’ve never really drunk alcoholic drinks before they don’t want to drink alcoholic drinks.

But the attraction of maybe drinking a new product that is based on an alcoholic drink is a novelty for them and something they might be interested in. And so where will they shop, I think the likes of sons’ drinks and craft zero have really been a real boost for the industry. All of a sudden, there’s now these days online and in science drinks case of physical presence stores where people can go in and it’s just non alcoholic drinks. So they know they’re there to shop for non alcoholic products. And they they’re obviously then going to be more open to looking at different brands, how they’re made, what their contents are, what their ingredients are, to try things differently. So I think the industry’s really booming in the last 12 months with the new players in the space. And that’s fantastic for obviously manufacturers like ourselves,

Jonathan 

And it’s also available from you as well directly. Isn’t it online?

Mike 

Yes, yes. So we have our own website at thanks and burbidge.com and we sold online Originally, we happen to launch right in the middle of the first wave of COVID. So our whole launch strategy was around bars and restaurants we’ve done a fair bit of work with particularly some gin bars like Gin Palace in Melbourne and Proud Henry’s here in Brisbane.

Talking to people they’re excited about the fact that they get a group of people after dinner coming in and they’re you know, have given them all different genes to taste but obviously sometimes in those groups there might be one or two people who don’t want to drink alcohol and so Giving them mineral water or a coke or an orange juice.

Now they can say hey Hang on, we’ve got a gin for you and they could serve them events and verbiage gin and tonic so we’re excited about launching through that aspect but of course, COVID stopped all that in its tracks and then everything had to focus online so getting our own website up and running and yes, people can shop through our own website. But obviously, most of the other areas are online at the moment as well.

We are just getting distribution now with bars and restaurants and we are available in proud Henry’s in Brisbane have been a great supporter since the day we launched and there’s some other restaurants here in Brisbane shops bar, a coin Bistro, places like that, that are now stocking is in vendors really coming through, isn’t it, it’s really starting to take off and develop. And you’re right at the front of that before the wave of COVID hit.

So is that something that is really on the radar as we come out of this COVID way?

Mike    

Yes, absolutely. So our focus and Steve who is part of our company, who I think he spoke to one stage, he joined us with a real focus of getting that physical presence really concentrating on the bars and restaurants and getting out to them and talking about the product so that people can come in and have that pre dinner drink that gin and tonic that they like.

And going back to my days where it was having more than one alcoholic drink was always going to be a problem if you’re driving and you know, here’s me, I have to choose between did I want my gin and tonic or do I want my red wine.

And it was you know, it was always a hassle. Whereas now I can have both. If If I can have a Banks and Burbage as the premium drink, that’ll be good.

Jonathan

It does look like it’s really supporting that nature of people who go out like you said, they’re out. And there’s a group of them.

And it actually allows venues to cater to people who may not want to drink can’t drink or don’t feel like having an alcoholic drink. And I think there’s also that other option for in venue where people might want to dial it back so they can have more of them.

So for example, if you want to have a couple of cocktails, then you add the banks and Burbidge in, and it allows you to have two instead of one because you’re cutting down the amount in each and every cocktail.

Mike 

Exactly, exactly. And that’s one of the things we talked about what the guys are proud, Henry’s there’s obviously mocktails that people can order. And there’s cocktails, which is you know, the normal traditional alcohol.

But in some cases, there’s a lot of gin based cocktails that use maybe two or three alcoholic ingredients. So if you can use a non alcoholic gin as part of that drink, as you said, you’re cutting down the alcohol level in that drink.

So people can have, you know, instead of one or two, they can have two or three, or they can just lower their alcohol content from the normal amount of drinks they have and help them from a health perspective.

So it lends itself to being totally non alcoholic alternative to actually also blending itself with alcoholic drinks just to bring down the alcoholic content, or the amount of alcohol that people are having on a night out.

Mike 

There’s so many different options for it. And the whole industry as well as starting to move in that direction and bring some awareness to the piece that alcohol is a choice for some people and not drinking it is also a choice for others. But then there’s also the choice of people in the middle who want to try both.

And that’s kind of a really exciting space to see it growing. And I think that’s where it’s going to really get traction in venue. So hopefully it means you guys up in Brisbane are able to enjoy venues a little bit earlier than we are down here in Melbourne. But we’ll be looking on closely to see how things take off up there.

Mike 

Yeah, so a lot of the pre work we’ve done around venues and talking to bars and restaurants and sort of getting people interested to take the product even before we come up with the final product was in Melbourne.

And so it was such a shame, the impact that COVID had on the hospitality industry in Melbourne and we can’t wait until everything’s back to normal and we’re back up and running.

And we can get down to Melbourne and get around some of the people that we spoke to going back two or three years now and help support their businesses get back up on their feet.

Jonathan

Yeah, I can’t wait it’s going to be something which is gonna be really quite special once it’s all up and running again. And hopefully there’s some banks and Burbidge in a few days. Jean Paul is down here in a few bars as well. So Mike, it’s been really great to chat today. And I really enjoyed learning about the process, the iteration and the ingredients that go into the creation of the gene itself. If you could leave us with your favourite cocktail on how you do like to enjoy because I know you said that you enjoyed a couple of different ways.

So if you could choose one, how would you How would you run with it?

Mike

Um, I really just particularly as we’re coming into spring and summer, and obviously up in Brisbane, we do have the warm summer afternoons, I love nothing better than gin and tonic, but move towards that real botanical flavour.

And so some thinly shaved strips of cucumber, a twig of rosemary, you know, you know, just a traditional gin and tonic. There’s nothing better.

Jonathan

I don’t disagree, especially when you haven’t had one for a while. It’s nice to just have it as it is in its truest form.

Mike

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Perfect.

Jonathan

Well, no, I really enjoyed chatting and it’s been great to have you on today. And hopefully, you’re up and running again soon and in-venue sooner than we all expect.

Mike 

Thanks, Jonathan. Really appreciate it. Thank you.

Jonathan 

Alrighty, that is the end of today’s episode. I really hope you enjoyed hearing Mike’s chat and hearing all about banks and Burbidge but more in particular about the launch strategy around using in the venue to really get the product in front of people and in their glasses. It’s great to see that non alcoholic options are starting to become a little bit more mainstream and getting out there.

I really hope that you enjoyed the chat and as always, you can find all the information over at tipplezero.com/session 08 and if you want to keep up with me You can follow me over at triple zero drinks on Instagram.

Now before I go, I did want to let you know that if I sounded a little bit flat coming into that episode it was because it was probably about 25 minutes after the earthquake that we had down here in Melbourne and I noticed while I was editing it did take me a little while to get going. I promise I will be back on it for the next one and hopefully everything is good to go.

So until next time, I hope you guys enjoy some great non alcoholic drinks and I will chat to you guys soon. Bye.